× Die Bosch D-Jetronic war 1967 die erste Großserien elektronische Einspritzung der Welt. - Bosch's D-Jetronic was the first mass-production electronic fuel injection.

Lancia 2000 HF problems

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23 May 2020 20:39 - 23 May 2020 21:18 #13968 by br1vittorio Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Lancia 2000 HF problems was created by br1vittorio
Moved to new thread by admin as these are 2 different cases

It seems the same story that happened in my Lancia 2000 HF coupè!

Here t is:

Hello my friend!
I'm very happy to see that you are still alive and working on D-Jetronic!
I am Bruno (br1vittorio) from Italy, we exchanged some emails some 4-5 years ago when I had problems with my Lancia 2000HF coupè..drastically loosing power on strong cceleration.
To try and solve the problem I first replaced the leaking vacuum advance unit on the distributor, then the leaking MPS and last the throttle switch with no improvement or problem solution.
I had the car checked by a very good Lancia mechanic, owning a Lancia 2000 limousine too, and he solved the problem: it was due to clogging in the gasoline tank!
Now I have just addressed to you a friend in Rome because he has problems with MPS.

While thanking you again for all precious infos and technical details given in your guides...I still wonder about the simplicity or not of the D-Jetronic system.
I mean that I would like to know in a simple way:
- is the electric feed pump always working at the same speed? I don't think so but which
is the input that tells her to run faster or slower?
- ECU: I have the suspicion that it has been designed with plenty of ...by-pass (ie
more than necessary, needed instructions: I mean...if some inputs are wrong (like, in my case,
the vacuum advance unit and the MPS signals)....why was the car, all in all, still
behaving?

Again my thanks for your invaluable help.
Have a nice Sunday.
Bruno

PS:
while seeing that really, as you said, the only vacuum advance unit (or canister as so-called in usa) ...on sale on ebay asks something like 750€....I I would appreciate very much your opinion, suggestion or what else to do ....when there will not be ANY of these rare and precious parts available......!
Is not there a solution?
(my vacuum advance unit is the Bosch 1 237 121 121...which seems to be used on Lancia only! I found a still working one thanks to american customers/friends who addressed me positively to Felix, Lancia South Africa! I inspired it and it worked!)
Last edit: 23 May 2020 21:18 by Volker. Reason: typing errors, reduction of quoted message space

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23 May 2020 21:23 #13969 by Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Replied by Volker on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Hi Bruno,

  1. Ignition is separate from D-Jetronic
  2. Fuel pump always runs at same speed
  3. ECU takes all input signals as they are and calculates fuel amount accordingly. A leaking MAP sensor will thus create very rich mixture in all load situations.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

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23 May 2020 22:22 #13971 by nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Replied by nordfisch on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Hi Bruno,
and some more:
- the D-Jetronic's ECU doesn't have any error detection or correction. If a sensor gets faulty, the ECU reacts according to the missing or wrong values: Missing connection to engine temp sensor means: 'engine is extremely cold, enrichen the mixture', same with air temp sensor. AS volker wrote before, faulty MPS diaphragm or faulty vacuum line towards it or other vacuum leaks signalize 'Full Throttle, enrichen the mixture' and so on.

Our cars are old... and some parts are or get unavailable.
In many cases you have to search for a long time or spend $$$$$$ to sellers who know what some guys are ready to pay to keep their car running.
Being aware of bad investitions into a very small market no one will reproduce parts only needed by a handful of people, therefore we have to find other ways like adapting similar parts or finding ways in repairing the defective ones.
Up to this point, no D-Jet-car-owner contacting this forum had to wreck his car because of missing spare parts.
But we would like very much to get in contact with guys who can rebuild parts we're not able to rebuild at this moment.

Don't throw defective parts away - sometimes you need two units to rebuild one or just a sample...

Regards
Norbert

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23 May 2020 22:54 #13974 by br1vittorio Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Replied by br1vittorio on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Thank you Norbert for your kindness but, once more, I do not get very useful or exact, correct replies.
You and Vogel too very often use to speak of "enrichen the mixture" or something like that which, to me, is a little bit confusing...in the sense that if you (and he too) mean "increase the fuel/air ratio"...well it would be better to call it so, so every not speaking german people will understand.
If, on the contrary, you mean an increase in throughput (gasoline+air steady mixture quantity) that is quite another thing.
I did ask just a few minutes ago to better understand some other mysteries like what really increases the car speed if the MPS is faulty, what happens with a leaking vacuum advance canister and I did not get any satisfactory reply from Volker....
Another thing I was hoping to get an answer was to know what to do with a leaking vacuum advance unit.....no reply.
I never throw away anything but frankly I was expecting a more positive help and answers.
Thanks the same
Bruno

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23 May 2020 23:14 #13975 by br1vittorio Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Replied by br1vittorio on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
ciao!
sorry but your replies are a little bit too hermetic to me.
Would yoy please kindly explain better what you mean and what happens, specially for points 1 and 3?
You wrote: 1) Ignition is separate from D-Jetronic SO?WHAT YOU MEAN?
2) uel pump always runs at same speed OK
3) ECU takes all input signals as they are and calculates fuel amount
accordingly. A leaking MAP sensor will thus create very rich mixture in
all load situations. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? USE OTHER WORDS
PLEASE!

By the way I was expecting some other answers......
Thanks
Bruno

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23 May 2020 23:17 - 23 May 2020 23:18 #13976 by Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Replied by Volker on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Hi Bruno,

your are confusing us. First you state that you have replaced the igntion vacuum canister and then you ask how to repair it? Well it is an easy ignition distributor. So also the vacuum canister is a pure retard version. You can bend the two halves of the housing open, replace diaphragm and then curl both halves back and hope that this will be vacuum tight. That needs a lot of patience. I tried that on my double action canister and failed - but that is also more complicated.

If that is a satisfactory reply to your question? I doubt it .

Enriching a mixture is a common wording and means decreasing A/F ratio. It will not speed up your car. It will consume much more fuel and become maybe even slower. Engine spped comes from more air and not by adding more fuel. A proper D-Jetronic will always adapt fuel to engine air.

What to do with leaking and broken units? They need replacement.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

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Last edit: 23 May 2020 23:18 by Volker.

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24 May 2020 00:14 - 24 May 2020 01:08 #13980 by br1vittorio Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Replied by br1vittorio on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
What a quick and disappointing answer!
I hope that you will be kinder to my friend.
It was not my intention to confuse anybody...maybe it's only a language problem!
You wrote (my replies in BLOCK)

your are confusing us. IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION!
First you state that you have replaced the igntion vacuum canister and then you ask how to repair it? NOT THIS WORKING ONE!!!!!i (FOR FUTURE NEEDS!!!!)I
I THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD BE ABLE TO HELP!

Well it is an easy ignition distributor. So also the vacuum canister is a pure retard version. You can bend the two halves of the housing open, replace diaphragm and then curl both halves back and hope that this will be vacuum tight. That needs a lot of patience. I tried that on my double action canister and failed - but that is also more complicated. I KNOW THAT YOU TRIED IN VAIN, A COLLEAGUE TOLD ME THAT IT IS POSSIBLE BUT NOT EASY, ALL THESE THINGS DO NOT SOLVE ANY PROBLEM!

If that is a satisfactory reply to your question? I doubt it . VERY DISAPPOINTING

Enriching a mixture is a common wording and means decreasing A/F ratio.
NOW I KNOW MORE ON WHAT YOU MEAN IN YOUR ENGLISH. THE CORRECT WORDS ARE RICH AND LEAN.
It will not speed up your car. It will consume much more fuel and become maybe even slower.
Engine spped comes from more air and not by adding more fuel.THIS IS WRONG, 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!! (THE REASON IS THE HIGHER THROUGHPUT!!!!!!) (I DID NOT EXPECT SUCH A WRONG THING FROM YOU!)
A proper D-Jetronic will always adapt fuel to engine air. HOW, PLEASE?

What to do with leaking and broken units? They need replacement. WHAT AN OBVIOUS ANSWER....! VERY USEFUL INDEED!

Hoping to have been understood in the right way and that, once in a while, you will please amend, improve your english translations!

Have a nice Sunday
ing. Bruno Zappaterra
chemical engineer
Last edit: 24 May 2020 01:08 by br1vittorio. Reason: typing errors, HIGHLIGHTING IMPORTANT SUBJECTS

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24 May 2020 01:57 #13981 by nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Replied by nordfisch on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Hi Bruno,
I'm so sorry I used the verb 'enrich'.

I will use the phrase 'make more rich' in the future.

I use simple language <German> quite often because I work with disabled persons.
Now I realize I have to take more care about my choice of English words.

Regards
Norbert

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24 May 2020 10:00 #13982 by Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Replied by Volker on topic Lancia 2000 HF problems
Hi Bruno,

I will not further reply to your questions as you know everything better from injection systems to English.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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