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Topic-icon Trigger Point Conumdrum

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21 Mai 2018 07:40 #9362 von cjhols
cjhols erstellte das Thema Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi not sure if my other post went through so I thought I'd write another.
Here is my problem. I was trying to clean the connector on the trigger point lead when it unexpectedly came apart. I did not see where the wires went. The problem was complicated because the wires coming from the distributor were not the original wires (see the photo). I tried to match them as best I could but I have since discovered that they were not in a matching order (I think). I pulled the distributor out to find the correct connections but still can not get the engine to fire. I have checked the voltage across the black wire and have appox 4 volts on the Y/green and Y/blue combination and (after rotating the distributor) 4 volts on the Y/red and y?white. The car was running fine before all this so I am a little perplexed as to why this has occurred.
The only thing I have touched is the distributor, the connector and sprayed the sliding throttle switch.
I have also read Dr. D-Jets but was wondering if someone might be a little more specific as to what I should be testing?
Could I have inadvertently damaged something by hooking the connector wires up incorrectly?
Are the colour codes correct on the photo for the correct wiring?
Many thanks
Peter
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21 Mai 2018 09:30 #9363 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter - and a very warm welcome at oldtimer.tips.

I once had to repair such a points set and took a photo:



As you can see, the colours are as you described.

The '12' is connected to the ground inside the ECU and the points switch the other wires by grounding them.

It wouldn't matter so much if you would have interchanged the other wires - the engine would run, a little bit less smoothy.

The points themselves have to be kept absolutely clean - no grease or spray. The electric current is very low, grease can disturb the connection.
It's the same at the throttle switch. Clean it - but don't grease it. Otherwise you will get trouble.

Could you measure the distance between the fibre rubbing blocks? Maybe they are worn... distance should be about 23,0 mm.

Regards
Norbert
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21 Mai 2018 09:49 #9364 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Norbert
Thank you for the reply. I did use an ohmmeter across the connections whilst rotating the distributor and it flucuated between 0 and infinity. I guessed ( through a rough measurement of the differnet wires ) that it was on between 135 and 150 degrees. I used a protractor on the top. I am now suspecting that it might be lack of spark as I hooked up a timing light whilst turning it over and there was no 'light'. I just dont know how this could be possible ???
Thanks again
Peter

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21 Mai 2018 11:07 #9367 von Volker
Volker antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,

it could be that you have broken the green cable from ignition contact to ignition module while fiddling with trigger contacts.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

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27 Mai 2018 05:00 - 27 Mai 2018 12:09 #9421 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi
I have just discovered that I might have knocked the connector of its track whilst cleaning it. It appears that there are 2 sliding connectors on the 1 track (see arrows on picture) . Would this stop the car from starting???
Can you also tell me why the cover has so many numbers when there are only 5 connectors?
Is it also true that you should hear the injectors 'firing' if the ignition is on and you manually move the throttle?

Thanks
Peter


ps - sorry about the photo
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Letzte Änderung: 27 Mai 2018 12:09 von cjhols.

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27 Mai 2018 18:02 #9422 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,
you might have interrupted the connection towards the idle switch-concact.

But the engine should start even without the switch.

The switch looks very corroded.

Maybe you can overhowl it and bring it back to function. But you can't leave it as it is.

- Clean it, but don't grease it. Use no grease or contact-spray.
The current is very low and this would cause problems.

Regards
Norbert

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28 Mai 2018 11:34 #9423 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi
I managed to measure the trigger points taking the mark on the distributor as O degrees and used a rudimentary protractor. What do you think?
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Oh I also managed to measure the nodes on the cam and they came out to be about 1.6 mm so this might be a bit of a worry???
Thanks
Peter

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28 Mai 2018 19:22 - 28 Mai 2018 19:24 #9427 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,
with a remaining node-height of 1,6 mm the unit wouldn't work anymore - absolutely sure.

Someone has bent the contacts or the contact sheet, so they can work again.

The distance between the opposite nodes should be about 23,0 mm. Measure this.

But that's no all. They have to be centered...

I developed a tool for adjusting them. Search for it at Benzworld, too.
If you have a lathe, you could produce it by yourself. I would send you a figure on demand by PM and the instructions.

I have some ready produced tools and shipping worldwide isn*t very expensive. But it takes time...

Regards
Norbert.
Letzte Änderung: 28 Mai 2018 19:24 von nordfisch.

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28 Mai 2018 23:18 #9428 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Norbert
I sent you a pm thanks. But did you get a chance to have a look at the attachment drawing of the trigger points firing?
Regards
Peter

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28 Mai 2018 23:56 #9429 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,
I looked at the drawing before.
And - it doesn't matter much if there is an offset or so..,
This is not a direct injection. The Jaguar V12 injects 6 cylinders at the same time and the engine runs smooth.

The contact's closing time should be around 180'.
You can see the green and the red line are much shorter.
Maybe the contacts don't close (or open, would be the same effect) securely and 'flutter'
The nodes are worn or the points are misadjusted.

You can see with my tool if you have a problem. There ist an adjustment range of about 0,8 mm (+/-0,4mm) for each point.
Misadjustment out of these limits leads to misfunction of this point - two injectors are missing or injecting too much fuel <if the points flutter>.
The contacts have to open securely and to close securely - contact must be clean, no electrical resistance.

That's all. The timing is made by the distributor-camshaft, but the timing is not so much important.
The ECU calculates the injection time - the points only give the timing that is not so essential.

Regards
Norbert

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04 Jun 2018 12:43 #9465 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Ok the post is starting to get confusing (totally my fault) so I thought I would start again. Please look at previous posts for any relevant pictures...
Here is my problem. I was trying to clean the connector on the trigger point lead when it unexpectedly came apart (the car was working perfectly fine except for a little MB lunge when cruising). I did not see where the wires went. The problem was complicated because the wires coming from the distributor were not the original wires (see the photo). I tried to match them as best I could but I have since discovered that they were not in a matching order (I think I have it correct now).
I pulled the distributor out to find the correct connections but still can not get the engine to fire. I think I also knocked one of the contacts on the throttle valve switch of its track (second arrow to the left) but put it back on. I don't think it is working though.
I removed the trigger points and they have app. 1.8 mm left on the lip
I think there is good spark to the plugs.
I have set it with a timing light so it fires at TDC (unless it is 180 Degrees out) but the cam lugs are basically pointing up.
I have attached the analysis sheet that outlines the readings with and without the ECU connected and I would be very, very happy if someone had some ideas.....
Regards
Peter

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04 Jun 2018 22:23 #9466 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,
I wrote before the adjustment of the trigger contacts is out of all limits.

Please measure the distance between the opposite blocks. Has to be 23,0 mm. At or near 24,0 mm the contacts don't open any more.

I wrote before the contacts have to be centered, too. You need the tool I developed to do the adjustment perfectly.

< I don't Know if the ECU can have been damaged when you misconnected the wires. Maybe Volker (Dr-DJet) knows it, but he is on vacation, But he looks at the new posts from time to time.>

Regards
Norbert

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04 Jun 2018 22:44 - 04 Jun 2018 23:54 #9467 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Ok Thank You.
I will concentrate on that for the moment. Was there anything that stood out from the ECU analysis results?
Peter
Letzte Änderung: 04 Jun 2018 23:54 von cjhols.

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11 Jun 2018 06:43 #9486 von Volker
Volker antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,

I do not necessarily get all the history here. But what I remember was a non starting engine and trigger points discussions. I have not seen an ECU analysis. However: Even if trigger points are broken, engine must start and then immediately stop again.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

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11 Jun 2018 08:23 - 11 Jun 2018 08:36 #9491 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
I have attached the ECU analysis again for you to have a look at. I am sure that whilst the Idle-run on the TPS is working the Acceleration Switch is definitely not working. It seems to lose connection at the little brass rivet/ connector at the bottom between pin 12 and pin 9 and 20. Anyway research suggests that the car should still fire without the TPS - Is this correct??
As for the Trigger Points they seem to be working (but as Nordfisch suggested) the 1.8 mm left on the cam might not be enough and I will have to modify/replace them?

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Letzte Änderung: 11 Jun 2018 08:36 von cjhols.

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11 Jun 2018 14:50 #9493 von Volker
Volker antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,

at a quick glance I see several issues:

  • Pin 1 ait temp: Must show reistor without ECU
  • Pin 2 & 9 you saw yourself
  • pin 17 should be 0 in idle, you have to adjust
  • pin 18 should be +12V while cranking engine
  • Pin 20 also not working

It is true that car should run (not well though) without TPS. But you also need pin 18 (Starter) for the car to start well. And pin 1 is my biggest concern.
a 1.8mm cam on T.C: needs replacement of cams. Most probably also bending will not help any more.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

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11 Jun 2018 23:12 #9495 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Volker,
Thank you - i have found this site and you and Nordfisch to be extremely helpful. Could you please tell me a little about testing pin 1 (where the air sensor is) and pin 18 ( what else to test). Kind regards
Peter

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12 Jun 2018 06:50 #9496 von Volker
Volker antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,

well there is not much to say. Pin 1 is the air temp sensor. An NTC that changes resistance with air temp. If it is open, ECU will use roughly 18% more fuel to compensate for the increased mass of extremely cold air. Pin 18 is +12 V while cranking the engine. Then the ECU knows you want to start it and uses more fuel (after start enrichmenent) and also injects even without trigger contacts working.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

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12 Jun 2018 09:20 #9497 von cjhols
cjhols antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi
Sorry meant where are the components for each pin ( 1 and 18 ) so I can investigate further?
Regards
Peter

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12 Jun 2018 09:35 #9498 von Volker
Volker antwortete auf das Thema: Trigger Point Conumdrum
Hi Peter,

well 1 is the air temp sensor on the air filter housing. 18 comes from starter.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

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