× Die Bosch D-Jetronic war 1967 die erste Großserien elektronische Einspritzung der Welt. - Bosch's D-Jetronic was the first mass-production electronic fuel injection.

Citroen DS23ie 1974- engine not starting when warm

  • DS23ie
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
26 Mär 2020 23:39 #13507 von DS23ie Australia Citroen DS23 injection
Greetings all

My name is Warren and I live in Gold Coast, Australia. Cars include a Citroen DS23ie and Citroen SM 3.0l carby

I have an unusual problem with the DS. It has all the original D Jet injection. Only change is a 123 distributor with electronic triggers for the injection

When cold (say 24-26 degrees C here) it will start and run fine all day long. However if it is switched off and left, say, 5 minutes it will crank but not start. Leave it to cool down +/- 3 hours and it starts and runs fine again

I have checked fuel pressure, spark etc and replaced the coil, HT leads, spark plugs, fuel filter. Adjusted valves. Injectors were replaced 2 years ago

I have tried swapping out the ECU and pressure sensor but no difference. Also no difference if I disconnect the cold start injector and thermos time switch. Disconnecting the wires to the thermal sensor TS2 causes the engine to run very rich

My local Bosch Euro service centre has not been able to help at this stage

If any of the experts have suggestions on possible causes of the problem, I would be very appreciative

Thank you

Warren

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
27 Mär 2020 00:01 #13508 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Warren,

thanks for opening a new thread.

When your enginge won't start, how do your spark plugs look like and do you have a strong spark?

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • DS23ie
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
27 Mär 2020 04:26 #13509 von DS23ie Australia Citroen DS23 injection
Hello

Yes spark is good. I checked by connecting a lead with a spare plug set at double normal gap, and all is good. Also checked all plug leads and coil lead with an induction timing light and all are working fine

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
27 Mär 2020 11:19 #13510 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Warren,

when your engine does not start, how do spark plugs look like? Wet, black, white ?

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
28 Mär 2020 01:53 - 28 Mär 2020 01:57 #13511 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Hi Warren and Welcome to the forum,
when I read in German forums gas bubbles are a great problem at the carburator-equipped DS.
I read the engine compartment gets very hot and the fuel transport can break down totally in high temperature conditions.

D-Jet-cars shouldn't have this problem because the fuel system bleeds automatically.

But - the system needs a running fuel pump to do this.

Please check: Is the fuel pump running all the time while you are cranking or only for one or two seconds when you switch on the ignition?

Regards
Norbert
Letzte Änderung: 28 Mär 2020 01:57 von nordfisch.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • DS23ie
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
29 Mär 2020 10:22 #13522 von DS23ie Australia Citroen DS23 injection
Thanks for your suggestions
As an experiment I have tried wiring the fuel pump so that it stays on constantly- no change
The spark plugs are wet and a bit black when the engine cranks
However the hot starting problem persists intermittently
After a run with engine hot; switch off; wait one minute- it will crank but not start. Let it cool down for 2-3 hours and it starts fine
A strange intermittent problem. Any other suggestions?
Thanks
Warren

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
29 Mär 2020 11:39 #13523 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Warren,

wet spark plugs indicate a problem with ignition. If it was only 1 or 2 cylinders it could also be leaking injectors. But if engine wont start at all, all4 should leak,

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
29 Mär 2020 12:05 #13524 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Hi Warren,
fine you already tested the fuel-pump-problem.
If you had written before the spark plugs are dark and wet, I wouldn't have suspected this problem.
As Volker wrote: ignition or injectors are my favorites, too
You told us you replaced them 2 years ago. By original Bosch injectors or another brand?
Please check the fuel pressure. It has to stay almost constant after you turned off the engine. Maybe leaky injectors o cold start valve flood the engine when you turn it off.

The 1-2-3 isn't fault-free. I think you or your Bosch service have to check the ignition in the faulty condition using an oscilloscope in the case the fuel pressure is o.k.

Regards

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • hgk
  • hgks Avatar
  • Offline
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
  • Europe
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
29 Mär 2020 18:26 #13527 von hgk Europe Citroen DS23 injection

DS23ie schrieb: ....
The spark plugs are wet and a bit black when the engine cranks
...
After a run with engine hot; switch off; wait one minute- it will crank but not start. Let it cool down for 2-3 hours and it starts fine
A strange intermittent problem. Any other suggestions?
Thanks
Warren


Hi Warren,

do you have an second fan for cooling? Is it still running after shut down?

Try the following: press the accelerator of full and hold this position, before and until you crank/start. After 10 - 20 s the engine will run.
Had the same Problem last Summer, when we have here more than 35 degrees.

If it doesn't work, better use the boat ...

Best regards
Hans

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • DS23ie
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 02:01 #13528 von DS23ie Australia Citroen DS23 injection
Great suggestions, thank you
I will re-check fuel pressure and swap back the original Bosch distributor instead of the 123
Injectors are correct Bosch replacements and have worked fine for 2 years
Electric second fan is powered off the ignition coil so only works with engine running. Maybe in short term I'll leave ignition on to keep it running
And if none of these work- I'll use the boat!

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 02:34 #13529 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E

DS23ie schrieb: ...Maybe in short term I'll leave ignition on to keep it running
...

Don't do this... this kills the coil and / or the 1-2-3.

Regards
Norbert

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 10:59 #13530 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Norbert,

he wants to keep the car running - that will not destroy ignition coil or distributor. That's what they are made for. And even letting ignition on while not running the engine should disconnect ignition coil.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 12:18 #13531 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Hi Volker,
the 'keep it running' can be related to the fan as well as to the engine...

Regards
Norbert

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 17:43 #13532 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Norbert,

but the 123 ignition has one advantage: It will switch off current through coil with resting engine 1 secoand after engine stalls.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: nordfisch

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 19:31 #13533 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Hi Volker,
thank you for the information - I didn't know this.
The Pertronix (maybe only the cheaper / older versions) doesn't have this feature.

Regards
Norbert

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
30 Mär 2020 21:56 #13534 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Norbert,

Pertronix earlier had specs on the Internet where they described which Ignitor version can drive which current and which version can switch off current on stalling engine. Earler stalling switch-off out of my memory was only available on Ignitor 3 (which caused other problems).

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Irmin
  • Irmins Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Citroen DS21 ie
Mehr
31 Mär 2020 08:50 #13535 von Irmin Citroen DS21 ie
Warren, I own a DS-21 IE. I had exactly the same problem going on. An experienced mechanic threw out the 1-2-3. It has weak spark, and under pressure (compression), even more so. I exchanged it with the original part and all problems were gone. I know the 1-2-3 system os very tempting, but you are not the first one, who is experiencing this kind og behaviour. For my SM, they do not even sell the 1-2-3 anymore... Just saying...

Best regards Irmin

2 B-Kadett, 2 XM, DS-21IE, SM IE,C5 240HDI

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • DS23ie
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Citroen DS23 injection
Mehr
02 Apr 2020 03:41 #13542 von DS23ie Australia Citroen DS23 injection
Thanks to you all, the problem is solved
Irmin has correctly identified the issue- the 1-2-3 distributor. Gold star!
I re-installed the original Bosch points distributor and there is now no problem starting from hot. The engine also has much more power. Among its other faults, the 1-2-3 was causing cylinders 2 and 4 to run very lean as the spark plugs were white after a run.
Thank you all again. A great forum
Best regards, Warren

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
02 Apr 2020 09:50 #13544 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Hi Warren,

I have always warned people that such a higly elctronzed ignition distributor causes its own problems over time. I was often criticized for trying to stop people from upgrading to a modern solution. Her is the proof that I was not completely wrong.

Thanks for your feedback, Irmin and Warren

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
Alles über den Mercedes-Benz 107 SL/C in Sternzeit-107.de

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

Ladezeit der Seite: 0.081 Sekunden
Powered by Kunena Forum