× Die Bosch D-Jetronic war 1967 die erste Großserien elektronische Einspritzung der Welt. - Bosch's D-Jetronic was the first mass-production electronic fuel injection.

Ecu testing

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03 Dez 2019 15:19 #12764 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
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Hi,

I have work alot with Bosch D-Jetronic to Volvo 164E.

And now I have try to build a teststand for ECU.

I have one problem betwin ca.1800-2200rpm and 2-25 InHg I get very high opentime on my injector ca. 500-600 ms opentime. But only in this rpm area. You know what can be wrong? You have referance value for a 0 280 001 009 ECU? I do this test with simulated 300ohm on coolingwater temperature sensor and 390ohm on air temprature sensor.

The Main reson that I do this test is I have very high fuel consumsion and have checked everything alse.

Mvh. Knut Åge

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03 Dez 2019 18:06 #12766 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi Knut,

that sounds nearly impossible. At 2400 rpm on a 6-cyl engine you have an injection every 25 ms or every 50 ms on each cylinder. How on earth would a pulse last 500 ms?

Really high fuel consumption normally comes from

  • Mal-functioning MAP sensor (leaking or detuned)
  • Missing water temperature sensor
  • wiring harness problems
  • ECU only in very few cases

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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03 Dez 2019 19:42 #12769 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing

If you can see the movie I post link to YouTube, you can see the high reading on the opening time om injectors.
You think it is not reel value and it is something that disturbe the valuereadings in the instrument and make fake value reading? It is only betwin 1800-2200rpm.

Map is not leaking and inductanse value is ok betwin 0-25InHg.

Coolingwatertemprature sensor and air temprature sensor is okey and good contact betwin sensor/wireharness/ECU.

Fuel pressure 2,1bar and injectors are tester and find ok.

Mvh. Knut Åge

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03 Dez 2019 22:35 #12771 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hallo Knut Åge,

Deinem "Messinstrument" würde ich nicht wo wirklich trauen. 500 ms kann nicht so recht sein.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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03 Dez 2019 22:46 #12772 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hallo,

und dann solltest Du prüfen, dass Du die richtigen Komponenten hast. Du kannst Dich da an der Steuergeräte Liste entlang hangeln. Türkis blaue Einspritzventile sollte er auch haben und die passenden Druckfühler stehen auch dabei. Dicht sollte der natürlich sein.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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03 Dez 2019 22:54 #12773 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing
What you use for messure injector opningtime? You have never see value like this before when you checking ecu?

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03 Dez 2019 22:58 #12774 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing
Ecu 0 280 001 009 map 0 280 100 015 injectors 0 280 150 036

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03 Dez 2019 23:12 #12775 von nordfisch Europe Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
nordfisch antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi Knut,
Welcome at oldtimer.tips...

Quite interesting, your test stand.:YES:

Watching the video I have noticed something that is not unimportant: Revolutions displayed are not engine revolutions, but distributor revolutions. The effect would therefore occur at twice the engine speed than is displayed.

Don't kill your distributor....:evil:

But I can find no explanation for the effect, too. :Bang: :Help:

One question: are the injectors connected during the test?

Regards
Norbert

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03 Dez 2019 23:48 #12776 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi Knut Åge,

your components seem correct for a European Volvo 160 3.0 . For high fuel consumption you should check whether your MAP sensor is leaking vacuum and whether it is closed by oriignal rivets and of course temperature sensors and leaking cold start valve.

Norberts hnt on engine rpm is correct, you measure distributor rpm. I use a test stand form Bosch as described in chapter 11 or my 4 channel oscilloscope. You should rather forget your strange symptom of 500 ms. That is obviously a measuring fault. Results from 1 to 15 ms , in extremes 30 ms is a normal value I measure.

But as I wrote before, I do not believe in an ECU failure (yet) and also not really in your test stand. You must simulate far more sensors and be more precisely.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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04 Dez 2019 00:14 #12777 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi Norbert,
Thank you :)

The rpm on the distributershaft is conting on 2 points, so 1 rotation on the shaft show 2 rotation on the display. the distributer is driven by a polishmachine with adjustable rpm betwin 600-3000rpm (simulated engine rpm is than 1200-6000rpm).
Injectors is connected under the test, the injectors is cold after loong testing, so think it is ok for the injectors.

I can not understand why I get this error value in just this rpm range?

what happend if a condenser in the ecu is broken?

mvh. Knut Åge

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04 Dez 2019 00:42 #12778 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi Volker,
MAP is not leaking at all. it have new diaphragm and seals change from me and readjusted to the same value as orginal on a 0 280 100 015, I use "20H" setting on my Unit UT602 and hav than 0,74 on 25InHg, 0,82 on 20InHg, 0,93 on 15InHg, 1,06 on 10InHg, 1,23 on 5InHg, 1,50 on 0InHg. have messure a big number of 015 map with this value with my test equipment, maybe it will have a differant value with differant vacuumpump and messure intrument to messure Henry. So I think Map is ok.

Tempratur sensors have be checked ok and have the right bosch nr.
coldstart injector is checked, no leaking.

in the test stand I have change the coolingwater and air temp. sensor with potmeter that I simulate temprature with. I use 300ohm on coolingwater and 390ohm on air temp.

what shall I change so I can get better test resultat on my teststand for ecu?
have you more spec. on your 4 channel oscilloscope? it can trust more on that than that I use to messure the injectors opningtime with today?

mvh. Knut Åge

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04 Dez 2019 00:53 - 04 Dez 2019 01:09 #12779 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Letzte Änderung: 04 Dez 2019 01:09 von Drdyse.

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04 Dez 2019 02:06 #12782 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi,

I cannot comment on your measuring equipment and your simulation equipment as I do not know it. I am also afraid that swapping a diaphragm is not just as easy as what you did. After what you told us your MAP sensor is your most supsicious part in your high fuel consumption.

I highly doubt that your measurement of 500 ms impulses is real. Injector impulses are not simple square wave signals that such an easy measuring equipment will be able to trigger. Any good 4 channel oscilloscope will do the job. But I repeat you are most probably hunting a ghost phenomenon. And for the sake of complete answer: These ECUs are hardly ever defective. If they are defective it is not in capacitors but in semiconductors.

My best advice: Get your MAP sensor tuned by Bosch Classic and give up your ECU testing.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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04 Dez 2019 16:32 - 04 Dez 2019 16:34 #12791 von Frank S Americas (USA / CAN) Porsche 914 2.0
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Drdyse schrieb: Hi Volker,
MAP is not leaking at all. it have new diaphragm and seals change from me and readjusted to the same value as orginal on a 0 280 100 015, I use "20H" setting on my Unit UT602 and hav than 0,74 on 25InHg, 0,82 on 20InHg, 0,93 on 15InHg, 1,06 on 10InHg, 1,23 on 5InHg, 1,50 on 0InHg. have messure a big number of 015 map with this value with my test equipment, maybe it will have a differant value with differant vacuumpump and messure intrument to messure Henry. So I think Map is ok.
[/color]

Hi Knut,
did you meassure the inductivity of a known good MAP sensor with the same instrument or did you just compare your readings with measurements of someone else?
From my experience the values you get with a cheap inductance meter are not comparable at all with meassurements of a quality unit. Bought a cheap one myself some time ago... ended up with an Amprobe LCR55A which is working well.

Cheers,
Frank

Letzte Änderung: 04 Dez 2019 16:34 von Frank S.

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04 Dez 2019 19:41 #12793 von Volker Europe Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL, Mercedes-Benz W111 280 SE Cabrio
Volker antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi,

additionally you have to adjust surrounding pressure and apply vacuum in difference to that to do it right. And you need proper diaphagms. When I started I used some from the US. 50% of them were scrap. Leaking or no linear expansion by jumping. Thats is why I developed my own.

The adjustment of a MAP sensor is a very sensituve issue. It seems to run in idle and then you are puzzled why you have high spendings on fuel or no properly running engine. You must not forget that there is more than one adjustment screw on type 2 MAP sensors.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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04 Dez 2019 21:00 - 04 Dez 2019 21:12 #12794 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing
Hi,
I have tested maybe 50+ 0 280 100 015 MAP and have see what value that is normal. The MAP I us on the test stand is a orginal not open 0 280 100 015 that is not leaking. my Volvo 164E is stored dry for the winter in a building away from my home, so the plan was to make this test stand and test som extra ecu I have to see if I have one ECU I can change to and see if I get better fuel economi, so the parts I use in the test stand is not the parts from the car. but when the spring is comming and I start to use the car again, I will change to this orginal not open MAP to see if it is some differance. I feel safe that my work on MPS is ok, but only do the test for confirming this teori.

I use the MPS diphragm kit from tangerine in usa, in beginning it was problem with leaking, but I talk with them and they fix the problem and after that not problem with leaking, only very high price. you have more info on your diphragm? you sell to other people?
sometime I find leak in the plastic seal for the center adjusting screw, sometime I find leak in the 4pin plastic contact. 2 times I have find leaking one of the androidcells so the inductanse value get too low on every pressure level.
I have test many new old stock 0 280 100 059 MPS made in france, (not Germany that the old one), this from france I have find many that is leaking from new, 2 have had contact from pin 7/15 to ground in the MPS, I like better kvality made in Germany.

Yes I know there is 3 adjusting screw on the MPS and have no problem to handle them so I get the same value as orginal. and I use the same test equipment on testing orginal not open that I use to adjust my MAP, so no differanse.

her is a quik movie that show a test of a orginal 0 280 100 015 that is not open after bosch make it. not much differance from my MPS that I have in my car, my MPS in my car have little lower inductanse on max load 1,50 on my and this have 1,55 that will use more fuel than my rebuilded MAP corect?


I take I quik test on my test stand today and can confirme that you have right Volker that the 500-600 ms value is not real value readed from the injectors.
I take compressed air from my air compressor redused to ca.1bar supplayed to the fuelrail on the test stand, before the fuel rail I mont a valve so I can adjust the air flow to the fuel rail, than I start the test stand and have ca.2000rpm and 0InHg to MAP and read ca.16ms open time on injector, than I adjust the air pressure in the fuel rail to ca. 0,5bar in fuel rail and after that I pump vacuum to the MPS to I get the 500-600ms reading on the intrument, if this was real value the pressure in the fuel rail will go down, but it not, so than I know that the value is not real, so I must test more and see if I can remove this wrong readings.

mvh. Knut Åge
Letzte Änderung: 04 Dez 2019 21:12 von Drdyse.

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04 Dez 2019 21:21 #12796 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing


from the simpel test that show that the air pressure in the fuel rail is lower on 16-17ms than it is when the intrument show 500-600ms. if the 500-600ms value was real, then the air pressure in the fuel rail will go down. you understand the test?

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04 Dez 2019 21:23 #12797 von Drdyse Europe Volvo 164 3.0 E
Drdyse antwortete auf Ecu testing

Frank S schrieb:

Drdyse schrieb: Hi Volker,
MAP is not leaking at all. it have new diaphragm and seals change from me and readjusted to the same value as orginal on a 0 280 100 015, I use "20H" setting on my Unit UT602 and hav than 0,74 on 25InHg, 0,82 on 20InHg, 0,93 on 15InHg, 1,06 on 10InHg, 1,23 on 5InHg, 1,50 on 0InHg. have messure a big number of 015 map with this value with my test equipment, maybe it will have a differant value with differant vacuumpump and messure intrument to messure Henry. So I think Map is ok.
[/color]

Hi Knut,
did you meassure the inductivity of a known good MAP sensor with the same instrument or did you just compare your readings with measurements of someone else?
From my experience the values you get with a cheap inductance meter are not comparable at all with meassurements of a quality unit. Bought a cheap one myself some time ago... ended up with an Amprobe LCR55A which is working well.

Cheers,
Frank


Hi Frank,

Yes I use the same instrument :)

mvh. Knut Åge

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