× Die Bosch D-Jetronic war 1967 die erste Großserien elektronische Einspritzung der Welt. - Bosch's D-Jetronic was the first mass-production electronic fuel injection.

1973 MB 450SL Throttle Switch- Should Injectors Fire?

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07 Nov 2019 18:26 #12616 von 1025MB
I have a quick question regarding the TPS on a 1973 Mercedes 450 SL. I am familiar with the Bosch DJet system, however, I'm curious as to whether all eight injectors fire at the same time as the throttle opens. I am aware that the injectors fire in pairs: one and five, four and eight, three and six, two and seven. It appears that in my case, when the engine is off and the ignition key is turned on and the distributor is pointed at cylinder number one, the two immediately following injector pairs fire (four and eight, three and six) as the TPS is opened (I, of course, hear the graduated 10 clicks). Should I be hearing all eight fuel injectors fire?

Also, as a separate question, when I test the ignition trigger delivery from the distributor to the ECU (back probing the five wires at the distributor, in fact, the PO inserted five bullet connectors for ease) I cannot fire an individual set of injectors twice in a row. I suspect it is by design, when I connect the number 12 pin to each of the four pins the 4.8 volt reading goes to zero after connecting each pin. In fact, as I cycle through all four sets, it appears that I only have 4.8 V at two sets at a time.

Bosch D-Jetronic (1973 Mercedes 450 SL) Bosch K-Jetronic (1976 Mercedes 450 SL), Bosch L-Jetronic (1982 Porsche 928), Bosch P-Jetronic (1986 Jaguar XJS V12), SU8 1974 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and SU4 1966 MGB

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07 Nov 2019 22:59 #12617 von Volker
Hi ???,

bith effects are by design. The ECU can fire on acceleration pulses without trigger contact closing. And on trigger contacts input block there is a mechanism to prevent boucing contacts from double firing injectors. Otherwise 123 ignition distributors for D-Jetronic who have the error that they pulse twice on each contact would create double pulses.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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08 Nov 2019 01:31 #12618 von 1025MB
Thank you very much for the very prompt response. Forgive me, my name is Kevin Ritter it's an absolute pleasure to join the forum, thank you for taking the time to maintain it for all of us. Another question if I might, as I indicated, I verified that I have continuity and power to each of the four wires and number 12 ground associated with the triggerpoints/ As I turn the crank/distributor, each of the four triggerpoints appears to stay closed for roughly 100 to 110°. It would seem to me that I could "wire in" a dwell meter in an effort to obtain a more precise value for each?

Bosch D-Jetronic (1973 Mercedes 450 SL) Bosch K-Jetronic (1976 Mercedes 450 SL), Bosch L-Jetronic (1982 Porsche 928), Bosch P-Jetronic (1986 Jaguar XJS V12), SU8 1974 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and SU4 1966 MGB

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08 Nov 2019 02:09 #12619 von 1025MB
Also, just to clarify, do all eight injectors fire at the same time with each incremental movement of the TS? Or simply the two sets of injectors ahead?

Bosch D-Jetronic (1973 Mercedes 450 SL) Bosch K-Jetronic (1976 Mercedes 450 SL), Bosch L-Jetronic (1982 Porsche 928), Bosch P-Jetronic (1986 Jaguar XJS V12), SU8 1974 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and SU4 1966 MGB

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08 Nov 2019 10:02 #12620 von Volker
Hi Kevin,

yes you can use 4 dwell meters to measure trigger points. I prefer a 4 channel oscilloscope or my igntition distributor test stand. Then I can see how the are all shifted by 90° and have same dwell and do not jump.

Regarding acceleration contacts induced injector pulses. They are independent of trigger contacts and are normally meant to prelong the injection pulse. But they can happen independent of trigger contacts. Whether all 8 fire then at the same time? I would have to read wiring diagrams before I can answer with 100%. PWM will definitely al fire, but then I would have to verify how drivers would approve these pulses to drive injectors. To be homest, it seems a pretty theoretical question and I am too lazy to do now.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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08 Nov 2019 14:34 #12621 von 1025MB
Thank you again for the response, perhaps you are correct that may prove to be a theoretical nicety.

More practically speaking, I have a 1973 Mercedes 450 SL that is currently operating with vacuum of 12 inches, extremely steady with no needle deviation...that is obviously extremely low. I'm currently making my way through the DJet checklist and using the online wiring diagrams with the index that you provided… the index is EXTREMELY helpful as the online interface is "very muddy". However, the wiring diagrams are not year and model specific. For instance, when verifying the resistance value for coolant sensor T2 at pin 11 and 23, the diagram does not address the fact the blue and white wire at 23 travels through a hot start relay, the changes to a green and white wire before connecting to the sensor at the passenger side rear cylinder head. I am obviously savvy, not sure that a newbie would be. It any rate, back to the low-vacuum issue, which I suspect maybe well beyond a simple leak. Let me provide some additional metrics:

-when the engine is running, I can remove and replace each fuel injector connector one by one on the driver side, and the vacuum drops exactly 3 inches for all four cylinders. However, when performing the same exercise on the passenger side, the volume drops by exactly 1/2 an inch.

-compression test was performed on the passenger side with all eight spark plugs removed, however, the throttle plate was closed (forgot to open...all values may be skewed low) and the starter was cranked seven times. Compression was 140 PSI for all four cylinders one, two, three and four on the passenger side

-eight new spark plugs, eight new wires (verified resistance in each), cap and rotor in good shape. Also, repaired the green insulated wire between the distributor and ignition amplifier. Good solid spark to all eight cylinders

-verified the performance of the four triggerpoints as indicated above, however, keep in mind that the injectors are fired in pairs one and five, two and seven, three and six and four and eight. Candidly, I find it extremely unlikely that the triggerpoints are responsible as the injector impulses appear to be being delivered flawlessly on the driver side

-all 8 injectors had values of 2.9 ohms and were firing as verified by noid light with the exception of number three on the passenger side. This injector will not open and close i.e. click when connected to a 12v source. Currently trying to source a replacement injector.


My intuition would lead me to believe that it is a camshaft timing issue on the passenger side. However, when removing the valve covers and verifying the relationship between the two camshafts and the crank, everything is in PERFECT alignment at TDC i.e. The PO obviously replaced the timing chain with IWIS verified by the presence of a MasterLink. The camshaft vmark lines up with the mark on the camshaft bearing cover. I should mention that the timing chain tensioner is in dire need replacement, and yes I clearly understand the pitfalls of a suspect timing chain tensioner…that is on order. In the meantime, I prime the tensioner by turning over the engine several times with no fuel and spark. In fact, I installed a separate button to facilitate this practice as I plan on continuing the protocol after installing the new tensioner. I simply do not like the design and prefer the ratcheting style.

Bosch D-Jetronic (1973 Mercedes 450 SL) Bosch K-Jetronic (1976 Mercedes 450 SL), Bosch L-Jetronic (1982 Porsche 928), Bosch P-Jetronic (1986 Jaguar XJS V12), SU8 1974 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and SU4 1966 MGB

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08 Nov 2019 18:54 #12622 von Volker
Hi Kevin,

inches for me is a length measurement, not a pressure unit...

But if MAP sensor is not leaking vacuum then a bad engine vacuum has nothing to do with D-Jetronic. In such cases there are 2 things to do. Insert smoke to test whether it evaporates somewhere. And use a pressure loss detector to verify that piston rings and valves are tight.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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08 Nov 2019 22:07 #12623 von 1025MB
Thank you again for the response. Does anyone on the forum have access to a vacuum diagram for a 1973 Mercedes 450 SL? At the very least, I am interested disconnecting/plugging all vacuum lines not essential to running the engine (i.e. is central door locking, HVAC, etc.) I have the benefit of one dodgy diagram that I will attach. In the diagram to the immediate right of number three appears to be a singular connection to the manifold, presumably the origin of the vacuum for a number of features.Basically, I would like to remove the area between the firewall and the license plate from the equation.

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Bosch D-Jetronic (1973 Mercedes 450 SL) Bosch K-Jetronic (1976 Mercedes 450 SL), Bosch L-Jetronic (1982 Porsche 928), Bosch P-Jetronic (1986 Jaguar XJS V12), SU8 1974 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and SU4 1966 MGB

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08 Nov 2019 23:03 #12624 von Volker
Hi Kevin,

check 107 SL Workshop manual above to verify heating, air condition and central locking chapters. They all contain vacuum diagrams.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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08 Nov 2019 23:38 - 10 Nov 2019 23:32 #12625 von nordfisch

1025MB schrieb: ... As I turn the crank/distributor, each of the four triggerpoints appears to stay closed for roughly 100 to 110°....


Hi Kevin,
the triggerpoints are misadjusted.
They have to stay closed <and open, too> by around 180°. 140°

Unfortunately there exists a youtube-video showing the adjustment to 110°.

Use my tool and you can adjust them correctly without using any angle measurement.
trigger-tool-thread

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Norbert
Letzte Änderung: 10 Nov 2019 23:32 von nordfisch. Begründung: corrected value

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09 Nov 2019 00:22 #12626 von Volker
Hi Norbert,

sorry to correct. but 180° dwell for trigger points is too much as well as 110° is too little. When I replace cams and adjustthem with 0,5mm gap with my alignment gauge, I see 140-150° of dwell on my ignition distributor. 110° dwell means that T.C. are not in mid and will over time come to 140°.

However, it will not be Kevin's problem. Dwell is not an important issue on T.C. as long as it is not too far away.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker
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09 Nov 2019 02:22 - 09 Nov 2019 02:23 #12627 von nordfisch
Hi Volker,
Kevin didn't write anything about a 'dwell'.
He wrote about the closing angle.

This is exactly what the youtube guy does: He measures the angle using an angle-meter-disk.

Look at the reading of your oscilloscope: opening time and closing time of the points are same lenght or almost the same lenght - how can the angle differ than?

A closing angle of 140° would mean an opening angle of 220°, and the oscilloscope readings wouldn't look almost same lenght.

Which way do you measure the dwell?

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Norbert
Letzte Änderung: 09 Nov 2019 02:23 von nordfisch.

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09 Nov 2019 16:19 #12628 von Volker
Hi Norbert,

I am confused. Dwell is the angle (with 360° meaning a full turn) where the ignition contact is closed. In ignition contact we will find that repeatedly by no. of cylinders during one full trun of distributor. And it is the same meaning on trigger contacts.You can either measure dwell for 1 cyl. engines or measuring closing angle of rotation.

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10 Nov 2019 23:44 #12653 von nordfisch
Hi,
in the meantime I talked to Volker and by fortune received a very fine printout of the oscilloscope readings.
One can see opening and closing time are really not the same lenght, Volker is right.

Closing angle is about 140°, not 180°.

Regards
Norbert

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