× Die Bosch D-Jetronic war 1967 die erste Großserien elektronische Einspritzung der Welt. - Bosch's D-Jetronic was the first mass-production electronic fuel injection.

Volvo 164 73' horrendous fuel economy!

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
11 Dez 2018 08:47 - 11 Dez 2018 08:51 #10698 von Al
Hello i am new to the forum and have a Volvo 164 '73 b30e djet from Australia. The engine is freshly rebuilt with a slight port and mild camshaft (K). it has 8000km post rebuild and has been running well aside from horrendous fuel economy upwards of 21L/100km.

I have followed the trouble shooting steps on this website and unfortunately still have been unable to trace the problem. i have verified the temp sensors appear to show the correct ohms. i have only tested within one temperature range at the ECU and it appears to match the ohms at the sensor. MAP sensor presents the correct ohms and using a vacuum pump it just comes within spec of the vacuum leak test (this however is right on the line).

I have installed a wide-band sensor in the exhaust and this sensor tells me that the AFR mixture is 14/1 or about after the cold start valve shuts off and it progressively gets richer as it warms up aprox 12/1 at idle and cruising. logic would dictate that this is the opposite of what should happen. this is also set with the CO idle screw turned fully to the left.

i have posted in the intro and Thankyou to Volker for welcoming me. To answer your question Volker, yes the sensors to appear to be reading the correct values at both i have not tested the at the wiring connector at various values just after the car has been sitting so i will need to test once warmed up to confirm wiring is not the issue.

i also have a significant warm start issue which i have overcome by adjusting the fuel pressure above spec to 34-38 psi

Cheers

Dieser Beitrag enthält einen Bildanhang.
Bitte anmelden (oder registrieren) um ihn zu sehen.

Letzte Änderung: 11 Dez 2018 08:51 von Al. Begründung: add photo

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
11 Dez 2018 09:15 #10700 von Volker
Hi Al,

well warm start problems normally occur if either injectors, restrain valve on fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator are leaking. How quickly is fuel pressure dropping after you switch off ignition? You should not try to compensate by increased fuel pressure as this increases fuel consumption in all operating conditions.

When I look at your MAP sensor, it has rivets and potting on this picture looks original. Did you verify that it is the correct Bosch no. fitting also to your ECU and engine? You have compatibility tables in my compendium in chapter 3 and 4. On the other hand 10s leakage is on the border of a failing unit. It means that your diaphragm has started to tear. The trouble is that it is hard to say how far. In the beginning it opens just a little, especially in idle-run. This tear increases day by day and it is hard to say how far it will open during operation.. So if there is nothing else you can find, I would recommend getting it repaired by Bosch in your country.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
13 Dez 2018 05:13 #10702 von Al
I have checked and it appears the fuel pump will retain pressure for at least 15 minutes if not longer. with the b30 its a non cross flow head and i wrapped the manifolds which i believe may be holding more heat in and causing vapour lock issue.

yes i have verified it is the correct number for the car i have also swapped another ecu in as a tester and verified they both are designed for the vehicle and it changed nothing.

yes i may try source a known working MAP sensor however it seems to work although the mixture does tend to lean out at the top rpms possibly due to the extra air flow from the camshaft.

i am perplexed as to how a faulty map sensor would cause the mixture to get richer the engine warms (unless as the sensor warms the diaphragm leak gets more noticeable). i will test the resistance at operating temperature at the ecu terminals to see if it reads correctly.

to have the MAP fixed by bosch i can imagine id be better off fitting a new engine management system haha

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
13 Dez 2018 10:02 #10703 von Volker
Hi Al,

well it seems your injextors and retain valve are then okay. But then warm start should not be a problem. MAP sensor will NOT VARY its resistance by temperature. And resistance is not important . It is a linear transormer that varies voltage peaks from ECU depending on vacuum applied.

But what does

Al schrieb: yes i may try source a known working MAP sensor however it seems to work although the mixture does tend to lean out at the top rpms possibly due to the extra air flow from the camshaft.


mean? Did you change bore or manifold?

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Abwesend
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
13 Dez 2018 21:13 - 13 Dez 2018 21:21 #10704 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf Volvo 164 73' horrendous fuel economy!
Hi Al,
are you sure the speedometer counts the distances in the metric system?

As far I know, Australia changed from imperial to metric system in the seventies.
Is this a RHD car?
Maybe this export car (Commonwealth) was equipped with an imperial speedometer...

Just an idea

Regards
Norbert
Letzte Änderung: 13 Dez 2018 21:21 von nordfisch.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Jörg
  • Jörgs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Premium Member
  • Europe
  • Volvo 1800 2.0 E, ES
Mehr
15 Dez 2018 23:54 #10705 von Jörg
Hello Al,

do you know this VOLVO Service Manual?

2 (24) Trouble shooting
Fuel injection engines
TP 10812/1

Chapter 6 - Excessive fuel consumption

Kind regards

Jörg

Dieser Beitrag enthält einen Anhang.
Bitte anmelden (oder registrieren) um ihn zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
16 Dez 2018 00:49 #10706 von Al
yes thats what perplexes me as to why it would get richer as it warms despite the sender appearing to show the correct resitances values. i am yet to try measuring at the ecu what signal i receive.

I have ported and installed a mildy more aggressive camshaft so this would imply more airlfow than the ecu expects at high load full rpm. that is what i was referring to. but i have been told this should not drastically affect d jet and it can cope with a mild change.


Thanks Jorg. yes unfortunately i have been through all that. the timing has been verified as with all of the other things. i had tried the fuel pressure at 31 psi and it did not drastically change fuel economy. so it is operating at 34psi to allow the car to start on a warm start

Thanks Norbert, yes it did oringally come with a MPH speedo which i have converted to KM/H and verified my readings with google maps and they are reasonably close. I estimate around 21L/100km as fairly accurate if i want to conservative on the readings it is 19L but that is still pretty horrendous on 98 octane and for just a 3 Litre. My friends jaguar mk2 with carburetta gets 15L/100km from the 4 litre engine :(

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
16 Dez 2018 13:55 #10708 von Al
UPDATE:

I have determined what is causing the mixture to be leaner at cold and richen as it warms up. It is linked to the auxiliary air valve. When it allows more air in the mixture is leaner as it mustn't be adjusting for the extra air at idle. Is this possibly because the map has a diaphragm leak.

i confirmed this by turning up the idle adjustment screw when it was fully warm and with it the mixture will lean out. now i also found that when unplugging the the throttle switch the idle mixture will get slightly richen. i dont believe from reading on here there is a way that throttle switch can be altered to affect idle mixture that would be the MAPs job. This would only leave the MAP as the culprit.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
16 Dez 2018 16:36 #10710 von Volker
Hi Al,

have you checked your MAP sensor for leaks? If it leaks, it signals fully open throttle to ECU. So it will enrich as much as possible. In cold start that could just be enough and the warmer it gets the more it would then enrich. I would say: Check vacuum.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
18 Dez 2018 23:59 #10719 von Al
Hi Volker, yes i have tested it and it is on the edge between determined failed and working with respect to the leak test.

i will post an update if i can locate a known working unit. and hopefully have some positive results

i appreciate all the help i have received from everyone. it has been very useful. i must say im not used to it some places can have some very rude people but everyone here is friendly and very open to helping someone who isn't massively technically inclined

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
19 Dez 2018 15:56 #10723 von Volker
Hi Al,

I keep my fingers crossed that you find a suitable unit. The 015 for P1800E I would have had available. but not for the 160 series. And please do not drop your MAP sensor to the waste bin. Before you do that, send it to me.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Jörg
  • Jörgs Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Premium Member
  • Europe
  • Volvo 1800 2.0 E, ES
Mehr
19 Dez 2018 18:39 #10724 von Jörg
@ Volker,

Manifold pressure sensor (MPS) BOSCH 0 280 100 015 equipped in
B 20 E: VOLVO 1800E , 1800ES and 142, 144, 145
B 30 E: VOLVO 164E

www.bosch-classic.com/en/internet/bosch_...__mit_teaser_1.html#

@ Al

Have you ever checked whether the cold start valve is leaking all the time?

Jörg

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
19 Dez 2018 19:07 #10725 von Volker
Hi Jörg,

as Australia was pretty early to apply exhaust gas controls I assumed that Al would have a US engine type. But you are correct if it is an European engine type, then 015 would fit.

So Al, which one do you have?

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • nordfisch
  • nordfischs Avatar
  • Abwesend
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Europe
  • Opel Diplomat 2.8 E
Mehr
19 Dez 2018 22:02 #10726 von nordfisch
nordfisch antwortete auf Volvo 164 73' horrendous fuel economy!
Hi Al,
you can do a last check:

I had a MAP sensor showing a vacuum-loss-behavior similar to yours.

I opened it, inspected it and couldn't find anything suspicious.

I noticed the vacuum got lost at the plastic bloc of the electric contacts.

I applied some glue around the bloc and the vacuum loss was gone.

Regards
Norbert

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
20 Dez 2018 00:35 #10727 von Volker
Hi Norbert and Al,

not to raise too high expectations: I have never seen such a vacuum leak on a MAP sensor. So Norbert your case seems to have been a very exceptional failure. I do not recommend to disassemble the MAP sensor. I have too many with bent or lost parts.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
25 Dez 2018 01:20 #10744 von Al
HI Volker

yes mine is the E engine which is the high compression version. thankfully no emissions crap on my engine so the 015 sensor is the correct one for my engine.

and of course i will not throw away such a valuable piece of the injection system. im not mad haha.

if i can not locate an affordable replacement i will attempt to open it however i doubt my skills would be sufficient to replace the leaking diaphragm or attempt a repair on it.

i will hold my fingers crossed that i can locate a non leaking unit

cheers

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Al
  • Autor
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Australia
  • Volvo 164 3.0 E
Mehr
31 Dez 2018 03:39 #10775 von Al
UPDATE: i have found a seemingly good working type 2 with the correct serial number. now this did improve my air fuel ratio/ lambada however not quite where id like them to be i havent driven far enough to see if its made a difference to the economy.

However i found another good type 1 MAP sensor and weirdly enough the engine seems to be getting better results on the o2 reading which i find quite strange given its not the correct type. however i will add it has screws so it may have been repaired in the past.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
31 Dez 2018 12:33 #10776 von Volker
Hi Al,

you cannot really compare with MAP sensors of different type and no. Is the spare one you found with rivets and if so what no. is printed on the top right rivet? And of course potting should also still be okay. I remember we once discussed a case her also from Australia where someone had drilled into the potting, destroyed the screws underneath and later repotted it.

There is nothing unthinkable in the world.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

  • Volker
  • Volkers Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Europe
  • Mercedes-Benz R107 450 SL
  • Dr-DJet repariert und sammelt alles! :-)
Mehr
03 Jan 2019 09:54 #10791 von Volker
Hi Al,

well someone must have read this in Aussieland and tries to make money now:
2000 AU$ for a 0 280 100 015 :woohoo: :Help:

I hope we are not going to smile about such low prices in some years.

Viele Schraubergrüße - best regards, Dr-DJet Volker

Dieses Bild ist für Gäste verborgen.
Bitte anmelden oder registrieren um das Bild zu sehen.

Bitte Anmelden oder Registrieren um der Konversation beizutreten.

Ladezeit der Seite: 0.200 Sekunden
Powered by Kunena Forum